(no subject)

[vicarz]

2:42 and I can't get back to sleep. Something about working out often leads to this - is it the massive post-workout food (a small sandwich?) being sore (no, not really) or some rebound effect?

Reading "The Logic of Life" by Tim Harford. These econ meets life books are killing me, thanks a lot Colin. They're like candy for people with 3 digit iqs. And cynics.

Take romance vs. economics. I had a friend telling me that in NY nobody looks at a female over 30 w/o kids like she's crazy. Well, according to sex in the city of NY 1.3 million males bounce around 1.8 million females. In fact, statistics show that overall urban environments have a higher % of males than rural in the industrialized world. Women in areas in which they outnumber men, even by a little bit, tend to be higher paid and more educated.

So not crazy perhaps just means not alone.

A while ago I was whining that girls all stated they want tall men. However, it turns out that in all studies (and certainly my experience) you choose what you have to choose from. Economics folks have been cruising "speed dating" for data, and finding sad realities:
Men choose twice as many possible mates as females
Everyone lowers their standards based on what is available. Big time. So much so it is comical. Women want tall, but settle quickly when no tall people are around (Mexico and Asia, here I come). Men want not overweight (I'm quoting here) but will settle when no thin women are around.
Or as noted in Silence of the Lambs, you first covet what you know?
If true, I should get the fuck out of gothdom and fast...

As housework got easier, both men and women started marrying at older ages. The division of labor became less important so there was no need to pair up? Divorce rates have shown steady trends related to developing nations, while female worker participation is related to lower rates of abuse. Bargaining power = love. Fascinating theories.

Still wish I could sleep. When I got up star trek, 5th element, and harvey birdman were on. Thank insomnia for cable. In 2 hours I might as well get up.

Comments

[turbogrrl.livejournal.com]

heh. "logic of life" has been sitting in a bag in the corner waiting for school to be over. I just packed it in my carry-on bag, then clicked on LJ. :p

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Hooray! And ice cream. In the rain. ;P

[cweaselle.livejournal.com]

Not all people just take what they can. Some have patience & are willing to wait until someone they are interested in comes along. They are rare though. Not all women want tall men some just want nice ones. I think we know that everyone is different, but I wonder who they interviewed.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Of course - in fact I didn't mean to say otherwise. The increasing divorce rate and the older ages people choose to get married speak more to bargaining power than settling, though overall they still make decisions based on their available field.

It's complex, though fun to talk about with isolated identifiable variables.

[cweaselle.livejournal.com]

It makes sense to marry later because we live much longer. It used to be if we didn't marry by early teenage years we wouldn't be able to since we'd be dead. I think that living longer has much to do with divorce rates climbing.

[have-inner-lady.livejournal.com]

Divorce rates have shown steady trends related to developing nations, while female worker participation is related to lower rates of abuse. Bargaining power = love.

Maybe. Or maybe it's not love. Relationships endure (or don't) for a lot of reasons, one of which is the usefulness each partner sees in the other in times when love isn't holding up. A woman with a job is useful in a very objective sense; her income makes finances easier, and money troubles are almost as universal as our DNA.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

The nice thing about the statistical studies is that virtually all over variables are accounted for - yet the correlation remains, so outside of an unlikely directly proportional factor confounding the results, the economists have it.

Love is part, but rational minds influence on a steady predictable curve.

[pictsy.livejournal.com]

I really prefer being able to look a guy in the eye, rather than having to crane my neck. There's more of a sense of equality and partnership. Unfortunately it never seems to work out that way, though.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

That makes sense, but you also have some interesting variables...were I to guess, you bond better with a fellow-performer and that height and income are not so crucial. Statistically you're in the minority. Me too, different grouping :)

[underfiend.livejournal.com]

I agree with a lot of what you said.

I hate the whole height-est thought, but a lot of times, it's because the short person doesn't want short kids. However, if you're like me and don't want kids, that kinda makes the whole thing moot.

As far as settling, yes, many people are smart enough to make the best of limited options, but at the same time, I have been taken a little amused by how many people end up with others who are "not their type", and have experienced it happening from both sides. I even told one girl that since I wasn't her height req, it was her loss. My attitude about my "shortness" made her more attracted to me because I didn't really care... but that's a whole nothing thing. Stuff like that happens a lot and I've noticed most people honestly don't have a type or know what they want, though they may have an idea of what they think they'd like. The two can be very different.

Speed dating... oh my g, is that ever a statement of a lot of what's here. Yes, a lot of the women I met at these events went only once where as most of the guys were on their second or third event. It's always funny to see them figure out how they're going to work out the math of more guys showing up than girls, but I think some of these experiences / thoughts I have re: dating are based on the DC lifestyle, which is not to say it doesn't extend to other places, just that I'm sure things are different (from what I've seen in Canada, for instance, where people seem slightly more friendly and less "shallow" over all) in other places.

The marrying thing makes me happy, though, cause in a way I think we're doing more waiting till the time is right, but there are a number of factors in play here- not the least of which is longer life spans and the need to retire later in life.

I'm not sure about the whole covet what you know thing, but it does take time and desire to get away from what you are already acquainted with. Hell, I've met a bunch of cool people lately after just letting my guard down and realizing everyone doesn't need to fit into my scheme of what is an "interesting person".

She rubs the lotion on her skin

[vicar.livejournal.com]

You beam confidence, which works wonders. When you don't care about them, people re-evaluate your "rank."

I completely agree that people, including me, have an idea of what they think they want but may well not know what they want (or should want, what is good for them etc.).

I am 100% into that covet what you know issue - I fight it. Give me a meh coworker and I think he or she is amazing, though if I met them in a club I'd not necessarily notice them as much. The more you see someone, the more strengths AND weaknesses are obvious. Offices are full of not-hots, so being plain at work is smoking hot. That, and I like quoting SotL.

Re: She rubs the lotion on her skin

[underfiend.livejournal.com]

The covet thing I kind of catagorize as more of "You want (more) what you can't have", which also feeds into the idea you mentioned about "rank".

There is a theory that the more you have to work for something, the more valuable it is to you, which would make sense why some relationships which start off as one-night stands tend to remain so whereas after investing a lot of "get to know you" time, the relationship may last longer. There are always exceptions, but no one likes to feel as they've wasted time, energy, or money.

Re: She rubs the lotion on her skin

[vicar.livejournal.com]

That bridges over to that whole manipulative trick of "The method" for picking up mates. Ick. Any system can be manipulated, but the people tht use tricks well...ick.

Re: She rubs the lotion on her skin

[underfiend.livejournal.com]

Hehe, you read that too...

But really, how is it a trick? The other option is to try to proove yourself to someone else and really, if you have self-respect, you should never have to do that expect maybe in a job situation, but surely not in romance.

At least, I personally am more interested in someone who doesn't act desprate but demonstrates valid confidence.

Re: She rubs the lotion on her skin

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Read 'the method,' and it involves engaging in behavior that is disingenuous with the intent of manipulating someone into fucking you - presumably then dumping them when the using is done. Deliberately insult to establish rank? Disregard to trick them? It's disgusting, and it's disciples are rightly ridiculted. Anyone playing games and doing tricks to get laid is pathetic. By the time you're able to engage in such trickery, you should be mature enough to have more mature goals in terms of relationships. Says me.

Re: She rubs the lotion on her skin

[underfiend.livejournal.com]

Right, but you're speaking of the entire "method".

I was only speaking to the part that it's true that something/one worked for is perceived as more rewarding/valuable. Hell, I think that's just common sense. I don't know if it's disingenuous especially since it's natural.

Really, how often do you find yourself disgusted by someone who is physically attractive but acts like a slut; if they acted with self-respect, instead of the town whore, wouldn't you be more interested in them? It's basically the same idea.

I probably would have been more disgusted about that part when reading about it if I didn't know it to be true and had not witnessed a lot of people knowingly, or unknowingly, playing off the "hard to get" theme. Eh, it's just human psychology, really. As humans, especially children, most of us wanted that cookie (or whatever) more after being told we couldn't have it.

I could write at-lenght about the psychology behind "The Method" because I do find it facinating due to it being so simple yet contraversial due to the obvious manipulation techniques, but I'll save that for another time. What's more, it is very telling about gender psychology and how we tend to interact. I do agree with your final point, however, and I belive "The Game" illustrates how pathetic things can get... but the main character eventually discovers this when he finally meets a women he loves and wants to stay with because she is a challange to him.

[kelowna.livejournal.com]

I think women _may_ want men that are taller than they are. There are alot of short short women out there. And "taller" can simply be defined as an inch or two. Tho that is usually illustrative of being protective -- thing is, you can be tall and totally unprotective. Or you can be over-protective and all dumb ass agggro dude... which is TOTALLY _unattractive_ (at least to me).

Regardless, people have their tastes and their tastes are entirely subjective.

There is attraction then there is being able to live with. Attraction can fade with incompatability and attraction can grow with bonding.

---k

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Well I like the statistics better. They say regardless of each individual, x trait nets y points in the mating game. However, if the field of people is 2x and you are 4x, then...it's just math and all the romance crap out the window when you measure what people actually do compared to their stated preference.

It's why people bang people they might not otherwise find attractive when they work with them.

[kelowna.livejournal.com]

And then LOVE happens and it all goes out the window :)

Attraction is not something that is statistical - I think its chemical. It operates on a base level that is not well socialized. It baffles me what I find attractive and what I don't and why, over time, those thoughts change. I don't care about height, weight, income nor education when it comes to attraction. Attraction just happens.

Those other things come into play when a life partner is being chosen. Because I need someone supportive and active and positive and inspiring...

--k

Resistance is futile

[vicar.livejournal.com]

There are always variances, but this is why I like stats - it controls for all that, and simply says out of x people y will do z. Exceptions are not relevant. You will be counted.

[ex-dasboot.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's my bias against speed dating events, but I imagine a significant amount of the people participating are already at a somewhat heightened level of desperation going in, so they would be more prone to settle for less. Speed Dating is great for gathering data, but I don't think the results accurately reflect non-speed dating behavior.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Now that is a counter-suggestion that I like a great deal. I find the whole concept bizarre.

[underfiend.livejournal.com]

Some people simply go to meet people....

The vast majority of the women I spoke to at both events were lawyers or other professionals who didn't have a lot of time to go out and meet people the standard way. Some of them felt that electronic dating was worthless, too, or had bad experiences with good reason.

I'll admit the first time I went was to meet someone, and I got a match or two, but the second was for the hell of it and everyone I clicked with clicked back. The irony is this time even though I had a greater number of matches, none replied, which just explained why these things exist in the second place.

I have the writeups for these events in my memories somewhere if you care that much. I know it's very, very long. I never saw my speeddating clip up on comcast so who knows what happened with that. My point is, they're (mostly) not as desperate as you might think.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Most reviews talked about it from a psyc perspective of avoiding the pain of rejection. Encounters were brief, and feedback was not done at the table - but through the computer later. That way, you don't face humiliation or rejection, or at least it's watered down with time and distance.

Better off just facing reality?

[underfiend.livejournal.com]

Yes, there is a lot of avoidance which is probably why some people don't write back. You can't be both picky and desperate... but I don't know about facing reality. Very few of us are capable of facing failure or rejection, even though that's how we become better people and grow.

There's really no easy answer to it, but at least some people can sleep more soundly knowing they "tried", or that their justification of there being "no good [potential mates] in this city" is supposedly sound.

One of the women I met at the first dating event said something like there were no guys there for her and wished me luck, saying she may see me at the next one. I thought that was pretty damn silly, but some people are like that. The shame of it is I had a better conversation after the dates.

[ex-dasboot.livejournal.com]

I don't think everyone who goes to those does so out of desperation, nor is everyone using eHarmony or Match.com obsessed with getting married as soon as possible, just an amount of people significantly large enough to skew the statistical results to a noticable level.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

< snicker >

[frontdoorangel.livejournal.com]

I can't remember where I read the article but, several years ago I read something that said that most people end up marrying someone that has grown up within 5 miles of where they also grew up. I would be interested to see if this statistic has changed over the years.

I am only 5'2. Most men that I meet are taller than me though I must say some of the best sex I've ever had was with someone who was only 5'6. So, I don't think I'm that attached to height.

We totally covet what we know, I've had some serious co-worker/friend crushes, but, I also think there is a healthy desire for something completely different. 75% of my immediate family has married someone of a different race, religion, country ect.. than themselves.

I think it's interesting that while people are getting married later in life, that doesn't stop them from "pairing up" any earlier. I think this has less to do with economic/work related issues and more to do with the decline of marriage as an important institution or ceremony. Plenty of people live together, buy homes and cars together, share bank accounts, have children ect.. without getting married and I don't think that they are really doing it that much later than people were 20-30 years ago, they just aren't getting married.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Only 5'6"? Wow. You must date tall folks, or I'm fall shorter than I realize.

I remember that 5 mile rule - seems to cover the average school district. I wonder if it is out of date, or applies to those w/o a college education (many seem to meet their mates in college).

[frontdoorangel.livejournal.com]

Oops! :) I guess I did date taller guys because 5'6 was the shortest guy I dated (not counting those first middle school crushes) but, I don't think I've ever chosen someone based on their height before. I normally go by that special something that you feel when you meet someone and they instantly make you feel hot and bothered.

Yeah, I think the 5 mile rule has to be out of date, I think the only reason that I remembered it was that I laughed when I first saw it. I met my husband in college and he's from New York. In fact most of the married couples that I know met while we were all in college together and almost none of them grew up in the same state.

[joanarkham.livejournal.com]

Hmm, no matter how you slice that, citizen_ken and I ruin the curve...

or neuropsychology

[fractalwoman.livejournal.com]

(voiding appropriate use of punctuation and grammar at this time)

the basic theory that has been found so far is based on neurochemicals in your brain. i read an article on this about three months ago. while statistical analysis can show the behavior, the neurochemistry, cultural mechanisms, and pheromones will explain why people really fall in love.

Pheromones, norepinephrine, and dopamine are the chemicals involved. Pulling from the article below:

"Two related brain peptides, vasopressin and oxytocin, have been shown to be involved in both the permanent or long-term social bonding that underlies mating," Kristal says. "The neurotransmitter dopamine, in a part of the brain called the VTA, is certainly involved in the rewarding properties of love and sex."

For back up reading, check here
The following seems pretty good but I do not have time to verify:
try here or here

Re: or neuropsychology

[vicar.livejournal.com]

So switch from strategy to spear guns and chemical injections. Why not.

Re: or neuropsychology

[fractalwoman.livejournal.com]

Not quite. If you read the links, the things that they discuss are internalizing your strategy versus externalizing your strategy. In one of the links, they discuss ways of increasing specific neurochemicals.

Re: or neuropsychology

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Busted - the neurochemistry scared me off.

The problem with that love = chemicals & coincidence is that the statistics also control for that. Answering "40% of love is income and location by correlation" with "smell of roses makes love" isn't really agreeing or disagreeing. ?