(no subject)

[vicarz]

Advice for you from my experience:
Look at what you do and try to understand WHY. What NEED are you attempting to satisfy with the act, and when you think about it logically, is that need likely to be served by your act? If the need is fulfilled, long-term or short term? At what cost to yourself and others, short and long term?

In my case, two inappropriately big needs are affirmation and power. Power is why I just came from the gun range again - somewhere in my mind I'm fooled into thinking being able to have access to simple lethal force gives me more power - some need is satisfied. I think that's why fake kung-fu dancers bug me so much - I'm not that terribly different. I know I'm not dangerous and can't fight my way out of a paper bag but it may or may not be obvious to a stranger. Seeing strangers act tough when they're obviously not drives me batty. It shouldn't - it's not by business that they engage in fantasy to feel better. Perhaps in that fantasy they will fulfill their need and get better.

I'm a coward. When an actual conflict happens, even when I'm not scared per se, I freeze up. I can't do 50% or more of what I can do "sober." For fun I shoot after 3 cups or more of coffee - simulating the effect of confrontation as I feel it in realistic situations. The final result is another hundreds bucks wasted and shopping in trader joe's while smelling like gunpowder. Idiotic. But as I drive home and people are assholes in traffic, I don't mind. They don't get under my skin, and I don't think of getting out of my car to correct anyone's behavior. Shooting guns has made me more confident. THE STAKES ARE TOO HIGH TO EVEN START DOWN THE ROAD OF CONFLICT (this comes up again below).

Why do I lift weights? Power. It feels good, power over myself, power over others (an increase in strength rank). It's silly - whatever I can do, combat is horribly unhealthy physically, emotionally, and financially for everybody regardless of who "wins." I like to have power, but not use it. I try to be nice - but I want to have the ability to control in the end. So there are healthy ways to feed that need, but a strong need for controlling urges. Perhaps I shouldn't put guns in the liquor cabinet?

CHEATING
I've had this thought brewing in my mind for a long time, but it seems trite every time I try to express it publicly. I keep feeling like I learned this special lesson about cheating, but when I look back I knew this lesson - The road to cheating is lined with affirmation.

Before cheating there is simple appropriate affirmation. Everybody gets it - most of the time, most people, get it without negative consequences. There is a line - everyone's line is different, but you can get affirmation "legally" up to that line. You don't die when you get into a relationship, you will get annoyed with your mate, and you will feel attraction to others. How do you express that need? A tight top? Walk around in public dragged by your partner on a leash? A cute wink? The problem is that you can get a lot of affirmation long before cheating, but the more affirmation you get the more you want. After one drink, you want another.

That's a war, a war with yourself and yourself in the future. Right now this feels good, and if I have more it will feel better. However, I'll feel like shit in the morning, and I could really hurt someone else. But god do I want another ten drinks right now. I want to feel that sweet burn and the tingly that follows, that blots out all those thoughts and feels so comfortable. But it would hurt tomorrow. And the battle rages on. Me now vs. me later.

We start here:
<---------- O ---------------------| ----------> where O is where you are, and | is cheating

You can go up to that line, but not over. So at first you're happy here, the partner knows about it and is fine with it, but then you feel this need for more. The same old stuff isn't thrilling, so you up the ante a little.

<-----------------------O---------| ---------->

You're still within bounds, it's all good...not so sure the partner knows about all this...and you know where this is going...

My need for affirmation is larger than most, and self-control is not my strong point. So for me, I've been way too close to my line or the lines of others. NOT RECENTLY - NOT IN YEARS. Somehow I knew that I was supposed to pull back earlier, but I, inappropriately, got really close to that line - then when the line was crossed I acted surprised "How the fuck did I get here?" and worst of all, just tried to go back over the line. Dumb, selfish as hell, and incredibly dumb. Was I really fooling myself? If I was so tormented and felt so guilty, why did I keep getting so close to that line? My need was larger than my self control - or I just didn't understand that line.

So, I'm hungry, selfish, and stupid. That's ok - I can work with that. So, my line is where it was, however, I'm not allowed anywhere near that fucking line. No, there is no need to express, no affirmation to be sought, no standing so close you can smell it. My line is the same as yours, but being a hungry selfish moron, I need to keep my lines in the sand way back before any inappropriate shit is even imaginable. And I have to be real fucking careful about what is called inappropriate - I'm a sensitive emotional little poof, so my consequences tend to be larger than uh...normal, or healthy people. Distance is maintained, feelings are not expressed nor allowed to linger, and everyone is better off.

It seems so fucking obvious - probably is to you, but for me it feels like a new discovery.
<----O---------------------------| ---------->

I don't want to act dignified - I mean I do, but I don't really want to hold my cards close to my chest. I want to tell my damn story, express my feelings, and receive affirmation. I guess it's a balance - there are feelings I don't express, even to my confidants. Some stakes are too high. There are some feelings I don't hide, no matter how embarrassing they are. I make a fool of myself here in writing, often, but I feel so shitty holding stuff in that I think even making a fool of myself here that I'm better off than when I fake maturity.

Comments

[empressmiaka.livejournal.com]

Wow, you just described one of my problems to a T. It literally sucked the breath out of me.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Hope it is of some help

[empressmiaka.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure. I've started to not feel badly about it anymore. [sigh]

[fractalwoman.livejournal.com]

sigh

I just had this talk with american_arcane. Here are some tips, my dear:

- Knowing what you do and why you do it is critical to any self correction, should you choose to do any. Again, your choice.
- Everyone has different life experiences, sensitivities, and comfort zones
- You only truly know the above when they are shared; the rest is guesswork or paying attention to the subliminal body cues
- The bottom line is that everyone is the same at their very core and base level - THE SAME - Similar needs and wants, different ways of expression

self-control is not my strong point
In all things? Or just in cheating? Can you accept that about yourself as well as the consequences for your actions?

Cheers and welcome to my world. My self control is in different realms however......

AND

I want to tell my damn story, express my feelings, and receive affirmation.

Some of us are still fighting with that. You have convinced me to temporarily unlock my post however......

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Well the counter is that by setting my limit to such a timid level I am in fact executing some form of self-control. And my issue is usually around sexing - something I like, See also chocolate.

[fractalwoman.livejournal.com]

* giggles *

Does anyone not enjoy sex? Or chocolate?

* laughs *

[frontdoorangel.livejournal.com]

"The problem is that you can get a lot of affirmation long before cheating, but the more affirmation you get the more you want."

My husband and I have battled with this same issue for just about our entire marriage. I won't pretend that I have advice, because I don't. I crave attention and affection as much as the next person and sometimes it is mighty nice to get it from unexpected places.

I know that before we got married we made a promise to each other to never give up, no matter what. Divorce isn't an option because we ruled it out before we ever got married. That being said, I wouldn't say we have an "open relationship" per se because I don't think either of us actively seeks out other partners for flirtations ect. but, we are past the point of being surprised that one of us might have a need for some affirmation from someone else every now and then.

I think the more honest you are with your partner and the easier everything is. When you catch yourself hiding things and not communicating than I think it's gone beyond a healthy need and into more dangerous waters, because at that point are you doing it for affirmation or for the thrill of doing something you know you shouldn't be doing?

[vicar.livejournal.com]

See that does sound like advice. I LIKE the fact that you two agreed in advance that divorce wasn't an option - that you'd work it out together. I've wondered what it would take for me to trust someone again - I have said the only thing that could be done is to stick around, beat that 2 year mark perhaps. I've heard the words before, done the acts before...but it never lasted over 2 years.

I have friends that do the poly and open thing - I try to be open about it but for me that's just silly. I think I'm ok with the doing stuff with others, together, because it enhances the couple - but when you date separate from the other it's just begging "why be together at all?"

Hiding things is a really good cutoff point, yup.

I worry about that need for affirmation being so large. Once you commit, isn't it odd to need (not want, but need) romance from another source? Why can't affirmation just be words, platonic things?

[ashbet]

We're in very different places regarding poly relationships, so I won't hash out my views on the subject -- because I know it's absolutely something that doesn't work for everyone.

I agree that the affirmation thing, and crossing that line, can be very tempting. It's important to have that kind of self-analysis, and to make choices that reflect your ability to resist temptation. (FWIW, I know exactly what you mean, and I *do* choose to avoid temptation in a similar way unless it's a person who I'm actively in/pursuing a relationship with.) I'm way too friendly/flirty to risk crossing a line with someone who I'm not planning on sticking with for the long term.

And, yes -- hiding things, in any relationship type, is where it goes from "open" to "cheating," in my book. When you start keeping major and minor secrets from your partner, you set yourself up to be in opposition.

I'm not going to say that I'm perfect in this -- in my own situation, K isn't as interested in complete transparency, so I either need to keep some things to myself or make HIM uncomfortable, but I do try to be aware when I'm behaving in a way that I *wouldn't want him to know about*, rather than feeling like I'm doing things the honorable and ethical way. It's a good check/balance for me.

-- A <3

[frontdoorangel.livejournal.com]

"why be together at all?"

This is the biggest bone of contention between my best friend and I where my relationship is concerned. I can't really explain it I guess other than just knowing that everyone is on the same page which is a really hard situation to get to I imagine. I think it boils down to the people involved. My husband and I were both loosely involved with other people when we met and the first time we kissed it was in a semidrunken pile of other people kissing. We were both obviously attention whores at the time and recognized a real need in each other for that affirmation, attention, excitement, thrill of the hunt ect..whatever you want to call it. We have been together for 11 years.

I think (for me) it depends on what you are expecting out of your relationships. I expect to get old and be buried next to the father of my children. I love him and can't imagine what my life would be like without him. We promised to never marry again if we should lose one another. I don't think that these feelings override my ability to feel a mutual attraction for someone else.

"Once you commit, isn't it odd to need (not want, but need) romance from another source? Why can't affirmation just be words, platonic things?"

It is odd I guess, especially if it becomes unhealthy, but, I think it is only odd because we are bombarded with The Way That Things Should Be and not the way that they actually are. So many people try to cram who they are into this cookie cutter mold that we are presented with: two people, together forever with all of their emotional/physical needs met by each other ALL the time. It just seems like a tall order for anyone to pull off successfully without something or someone suffering at least a little. I imagine that some people are able to have their needs met platonically through their friendships, but, I don't think that someone is bad or evil if they honestly can't, it's how they handle that situation defines the rightness or wrongness of their actions.

[alumiere.livejournal.com]

hmmm... and those of us who are in open relationships find the why be together question easily answered - we want to be together and stay together - for any number of reasons

and for us part of the way to do that is to be able to trust our partner(s) to use their own judgement - if t wants to have sex with someone else that's fine - i'm not jealous nor do i find that monogamy works for me (or a lot of other people)

besides - who says that group sex involving both partners is any more enhancing for the couple than each partner sleeping with someone else seperately?

for example when one of us comes back from a date w/ someone else we typically have absolutely fabulous sex

then there's the trust that's required in an open relationship - we always talk about it afterward (not necessarily details but at least in a general way) and it often brings up things we hadn't thought about or discussed before - so in a way that freedom brings us a ton of good stuff

and both of us learn new tricks with other partners both about what is pleasurable for us and what is good for whoever else we've gone out with - since everyone is wired differently and sex which each different partner is so diverse that's a good thing...

[fitfool.livejournal.com]

I like what you say about liking to have power but not necessarily using it. As for cheating, I think that I tend to stay far away from the line with most people but a handful of trusted friends let me hang out pretty close to that line.
<-----------------------------O---| ---------->
But my boyfriend knows that I'm comfortable with those guys and hopefully doesn't feel threatened.