(no subject)

[vicarz]

"Well, I'm a christian, and I think since it takes one man and one woman to make a child, that it's only natural that it should take them to raise it..."
(off-hand comment from an intern)

I was thinking about Dan Savage quoting literature that monogamy isn't natural, that humans have a long history of other behaviors. Now, I'm all about whatever creative permutations people have on fucking - but to declare that perhaps monog doesn't work because it's not what we evolved to do?

Other things that aren't natural:
Sitting down for more than an hour
Jobs
8 hours doing any one thing
Having plenty of food available to eat
Life spans over 30
leather harnesses with associated O and D rings
The ability to say no to people larger than you are with societal enforcement of your refusal
arch support
parasite free water
showers
razors and associated smooth skin mmm

Comments

[madame-venus.livejournal.com]

high heels.......

[pictsy.livejournal.com]

Srsly. Nature has no opinions or intentions.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Mmm...good quote

[kelowna.livejournal.com]

Not all creatures in "nature" have both parents present to raise the child they produce. In many situations the male bolts right after the lady is impregnated. I also think that I would note back that if it is only natural that there are a man and a woman involved in a child raising situation then it therefore should be only natural to have sex in order to procreate. Any sexual engagement that is not for the pointed purposes of having a child is not natural. That "naturally" men would steer clear of any woman that could not breed. There are some deeper incentives in that realm of thought -- thing is, as you put it, we've deviated so far from what could be considered a genetic purpose in so many ways that its hard to single out one particular thing that we still "should" be doing.

I also consider plastic surgery for vanity completely unnatural but it is quite amazing how many recipients of that like to tell me what is normal/natural and what not.

--k

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Oh suh-nap, good counters on all fronts.

[wantedonvoyage.livejournal.com]

I also think that I would note back that if it is only natural that there are a man and a woman involved in a child raising situation then it therefore should be only natural to have sex in order to procreate. Any sexual engagement that is not for the pointed purposes of having a child is not natural.

Thus the Catholic church's argument against birth control, masturbation and abortion. It's not supposed to be fun and you should only do it to make babies. Meanwhile, there is no plan in place to support and nurture all the babies that would produce, let alone resources for them to consume should they live a "normal" lifespan.

It's not just Christians wearing those blinders either. The town of Kiryas Joel in upstate NY which is about 99.99% Hasidic Jewish is the poorest town in the US with a 66% poverty rate and 40% of the population on food stamps. Mean per capita income is $15,000. The exponentially growing population is mainly single-income families of 6+ people (with 10-12 children not uncommon!) due to religious restrictions on contraception and women working. The town puts a strain on the entire area for natural resources and tax dollars, and yet the population continues to explode out of control.

Do people really think that's a healthy "godly" way to live?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_blackjack_/]

That's particularly interesting considering the Talmud encourages women to work so their husbands can go off and study Torah instead of holding down jobs.

[wantedonvoyage.livejournal.com]

As I understand women generally work until their second child is born, then stay home. There are exceptions but they are rare, for one reason because women are generally not permitted to drive. In fact I believe not many people have cars; the men mostly work in NYC and there are special buses that take them back and forth.

[novaya-zemlya.livejournal.com]

Actually the traditional definition of sodomy was any sex that did not result in procreation. The definition got whittled down over the centuries, but it still refers to most of the alternate fun options.

Also, not every sexual encounter results in procreation. This ties into the issue of female orgasm (stay with me here). While orgasm is a mechanical necessity to induce male ejaculation, it is not really a necessity (from a procreative perspective [please feel free to object with scientific literature here]} for females of the species. But that's only if you view sex as simply a mechanism for making babies. That whole orgasm thing is important for pair bonding behavior between men and women however. Sure, there are plenty of other arguments and things that can be added, but we tend to stick around the people who make us feel good, for which orgasm is just one aspect.

OK, that way kinda tangential, but going back to the whole "natural" versus "unnatural" argument regarding human sexuality, we do really display a number of behavior types. There seem to be some basic hardwired behaviors, but there's a lot of variety in there too. Right, now for more coffee....

[vicar.livejournal.com]

The church needs to take something away to exert power - so sex is a good one. If it wasn't sex then it might be food or something "Fat = satan" or some silliness.

[sparklypoof.livejournal.com]

that intern's comment makes me wanna ask what about all the single mothers out there who are raising their kids after the fathers left them - are those kids being raised "unnaturally"? for that matter, single dads. I mean... that is such a ridiculous comment to be making in general. and I agree w/the points kelowna brings up too about what about all the sex out there that is NOT for the sole purpose of procreation? is THAT unnatural?

oh, the thoughts you make me think. thank you.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Actually she and I were probably on teh same page there - she was also the prodcut of a single parent home, just thinking it was better to have two. I think from our conversation she would just find fault with the man in your scenario.

[grymnir.livejournal.com]

so - what does the Intern say to those families who are single parent because the partner has been killed in the line of duty (police, emergency personnel, armed forces, intelligence agents, etc.)

Fucking parochial wanker.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Well no - she noted she was from a single-mommy home, but thought it was better (right) to be from 2 parent homes. Consider it a disadvantage type mentality. I tend to agree - only I don't care about the gender of the parents and two shitt yparents aren't better than 1 good one.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_blackjack_/]

In the Bible, it often took a man, his wife, his wife's slave, and God to make a child. Or the Holy Spirit and an immaculately conceived Virgin.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Mmm...slaves, sweet yummy slaves...

Hehehe...

[hobbitkicker.livejournal.com]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw

[railwaymadness]

I look forward to hearing from that intern after he/she has a baby. You know, all the stories about how they aren't accepting help from their parents, from friends, from daycare, from teachers, from doctors, heck even allowing that kid to see other children would provide socialization -- an important part of raising a child. Good luck to them!

[vicar.livejournal.com]

She is 20, that special age when you haven't paid rent yet and your opinions are all quite strong.

[samaritan1975.livejournal.com]

The funny thing? Christ never said one word Himself about homosexuality. Not one. Whole buncha other people got to have their say, though.

[joanarkham.livejournal.com]

I am getting really, really tired of the marriage = kids thing.

I <3 both my husband and my barren womb.

[samaritan1975.livejournal.com]

I'm a Christian too, and feel that's trite billshit.

A child needs love and support, and knowing there's someone they can trust. That should be the parent(s), regardless of gender or sexuality (or even blood relation).

[desiringmachine.livejournal.com]

i didn't read savage's point that way. i don't know which specific column it was anymore but i am pretty sure what he was trying to get at was that monogamy is not for everyone (but if it works for you that's totally fine), and the 'natural' examples were just a few to shoot down the 'fundy christian sex in marriage is the only thing that's valid it's natures way' argument. i don't think it was meant to be applied to our entire lives, just to refute something else.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

Actually I think you're right but I was taking cheap shots. He probably was shooting down the "it's natural" argument.

I usually counter briefly with "rape and murder are natural too."

[have-inner-lady.livejournal.com]

permanent private residences


Your list is fun and good for a think.

[hobbitkicker.livejournal.com]

Toilet paper is not natural either. If it weren't for "unnatural," we would all be running around with mud butt.

[vicar.livejournal.com]

That only applies to people who poo.