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Apr. 19th, 2007 07:53 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
vicarzWork has turned much shittier recently, and I'm applying for other jobs. That really makes me sad, because I like this work and the people I work directly with, and am gaining great experience in this area.
I listened to the radio on the way to work and it was filled with people giving their opinion on the V tech shootings, of crazy people, of gun laws, or the U response, and...I just wanted to thank the people on my f-list for understanding, far beyond the people I heard on the tv and radio, that their opinion doesn't matter. My list is not full of people prattling on about, with the rare and appropriate exception of people that actually know people there talking about those people, their opinions. It's something I didn't realize - even when people aren't on the internet, they think their opinion matters.
Irony is me voicing this, my opinions...but I have several problems right now and I need to vent.
I'm angry that the V Tech shooter is being described as railing against christianity. He complained about debauchery. He called himself Jesus for crying out loud. Maybe I'm missing those excerpts that show he was against the religion. Looks to me like he was taking on the role and positions of that religion, at least in his mind.
I'm afraid I'm in the unusual position, like in Columbine, that I feel like part of me understands part of the shooter.
Let me first say I'm not threatening anybody. I'm an old man now, with love in my life and a lot to lose. I feel invested in society, for all its ills. I would like to change things for the better, but that doesn't mean I forget how I felt, what I thought, or that the anger has disappeared. It's just that the anger is more likely to result in punched noses and political discussions that gun rampages today.
I am hiding this behind a cut because I absolutely don't want to offend anyone who is hurt by the V Tech tragedy. I have some very cold and controversial views on the subject, as I did in Columbine. I am not pro killing people, but I didn't always feel this way. I lived through my pain and grew out of it.
But...I had lists of who to kill. I had plans, maybe not in writing, but in mind. I still can map out groups to annihilate, and still have that reaction when I feel slighted, rejected, or humiliated. I hated the rich kids too - everyone has always hated the rich kids, just watch any geek teen movie and check out the bad guy. It's just that I see more today - I have a life, several lives, several distinct groups of friends, and the skills to have meaning and respect in many areas of life. I think a lot of the pain before was thinking my state was all there was, and that I'd be a failure forever. I remember in HS I had the fantasy about being in a job that always had me living out of hotels, because as long as I was from out of town nobody would know I didn't have any friends. You're never humiliated when you're a stranger.
I've heard recently that the kids who shot up Columbine weren't the geeks or goths we originally heard about. When Columbine happened, I associated with what they were portrayed as. I said the only reason I didn't do the same thing was that I lacked a friend and a gun. Cho proved you didn't need the friend. Damn azns always outdoing everyone else...like Alien Nation ;p
I also remember the kill scenario in college, when my former fiancé was bopping that older muscular martial arts competition guy. I remember her suite mates partied with them. I felt like I was on the verge of pulling a Rambo on the lot of them (but not the nerdy track team roommate, whom I later dated). I didn't ever go so far as to get a gun...looking back it's hard to say how far I was from that. At least that was personal, but the idea of going from that to lashing out at strangers seemed reasonable at the time. Shooting sorrority girls and frat boys was a duh. You could generally tell who was an asshole or a bitch at a glance - can't you still?
Today I realize I'm someone's asshole, my gf someone's bitch. That asshole is decent in some ways, possibly he's more good than bad - or will be. That's life experience talking. But I remember the hate, from middle, HS, and even parts of college. Frankly, for me the pain was more when I was alone, and felt it would never change. Friends and a feeling of belonging meant the difference between life and death - or was I just fantasizing. I've heard from many of my friends they had kill scenarios, lists of who would die...is that normal?
One of the biggest pains is a feeling of powerlessness. The Columbine kids had power, briefly. Cho had power. Did they feel powerless before then? The posing with weapons, the fascination, makes me think they did. I note that there are now threats across the country at various schools - other kids that feel powerless may be seeing the power that Cho wielded, and wish to have their voices heard as well. Cho is being heard, not understood, but heard. These others may wish to feel the power they feel they lack, and creating fear in large numbers, even anonymously, may give that feeling.
Gun control advocates are taking this as a battle cry. Gun rights supporters are arguing the angle that if more people carried guns, the rampage wouldn't have lasted as long.
So which problem do you address, and how? Things that come to my mind:
The targets. When you have the jocks from HS, the frat boys from college...they appear to have card blanche to be rat bastards. They have the money, physical size and ability, and the numbers. More importantly perhaps, they have the endorsement of the institution - sports in particular. This gives the impression the winners in HS will be winners forever, and the losers condemned to humiliatino forever. I remember being happy in the end of HS when the cliques faded, but noted that they reappeared in college - only with letters to identify which specific clique it was. I suspect if you focused more on other groups, provided more varied areas with which to identify, you could stop some of the anger of the kids that aren't a part of that. It's ironic that in memory of the fallen they do athletic chants. Will that make it worse?
I'm not sure how that applies to college, or when I'm realistic to HS. Both institutions have many types of clubs, including chess, band, and other nerdy places. You can have a sense of belonging, but invariably some don't. In HS I hung out with stoners and talked about violence, collected weapons, and had minor behaviors that if amplified seem to be in the news today. My nerdy home in college was the college radio station, and the feeling of belonging there made a large difference in my life.
The shooters. What makes them outcast in the first place? Cho had a pretty girlfriend, at least once. Not sure why he went ballistic when he had a reason to hope, experience being a part of something. Feeling alienated has a lot to do with this, so how do you stop that? It seems a lot of effort is being put forth trying to identify which geeks will strike out, and intervening. I suspect that will make the problem worse, though I suppose being targeted as a threat will give many rejects the feeling of power they crave. If angry glares could kill, geeks would never be harassed.
Culture? Do we blame the internet, games, or music? It used to be movies and books, particularly after airing a movie about a girl being raped in a girls reform school by other girls with a broomstick. The copycat crime led to lots of movements to stop portraying violence. I think these issues are just a side effect of being social animals, and am not at all sure how you prevent these types of attacks. The sad fact is I have to concede that without weapon availability, these crimes would not occur. I can't ignore the equipment makes those mass killings possible.
I'm not pretending I'm presenting a coherent series of thoughts. I'm just kicking out some unformed things that I have in my mind.
What do you think?
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no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 12:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 12:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 12:43 pm (UTC)I had a lot of anger and fear in me when I was in high school too. How is it that we didn't also snap and choose an exit that took the most people with us possible? I had a lot of violent thoughts, but I think I was ultimately pretty far from the edge. I simply decided not to hurt others or myself (too much). It seems to me that Cho could have done the same thing, but he just...didn't. I think the reason I am compelled to not think he was a prisoner of some failed brain chemistry is how carefully and methodically he went about his killing.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 01:12 pm (UTC)Or even if it started that way, that it is me that made it healthy and keeps it that way. I could second guess myself forever.
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Date: 2007-04-19 12:50 pm (UTC)hell, there are still days when i think this or that person should be killed - but what keeps us seperate from people like cho and the columbine shooters is that while we have those thoughts we don't act on them (ie: we possess at least a modicum of self control - not that we don't take out that anger and pain other ways though - i suspect for you these days it's working out; for me, it's dancing and riding and other physical activites and/or writing about whatever the problem is)
i do think society and culture play a part in things like this, but ultimately the sole responsibility for his actions remains on cho - from what i've read people recognized he had a problem and tried to get hiim/give him help, but he didn't accept it
no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 01:15 pm (UTC)Personal responsibility is a crucial issue. Cho blamed them for making him do x and y. Whatever problems he had, and whatever others did to him, ultimately he made a choice. His choice included targeting indiscriminately.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 01:07 pm (UTC)OK, good, it wasn't just me who thought this...
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Date: 2007-04-19 01:16 pm (UTC)Loved the turtle vids.
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Date: 2007-04-19 01:47 pm (UTC)I'm not sure if that is exactly true. If someone is that determined to cause mass destruction, they will find a way to do it. He could have planted explosives or used some other means to fell his perceived enemy.
Heck, there are more victims of automobile accidents each year than there are victims of gun violence. However, they issue drivers' licenses to just about anyone, regardless of their mental health or even their physical health (for the most part). Most people can't even operate a vehicle safely (driving under the influence, driving with distractions, etc.). So, we have a whole hell of a lot of people driving around in what amounts to (as Warren Ellis put it) a "one ton metal bullet" capable of destroying many lives with one thoughtless action. There are no campaigns to establish legislation for stricter "automobile control."
I'm not really pro-gun or anti-gun, by the way. I'm just in favor of people thinking more responsibly. Everyone is so quick to point a finger at anyone but themselves. We should all point a finger at ourselves first and look deep within at the things for which we're personally responsible before blaming everyone else for what's wrong with the world.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 01:54 pm (UTC)A car on average will only kill 1-4 people at a blow. Some record numbers involve killing up to ten people on a crowded sidewalk, but these are rare.
Explosives sound cool, but the Columbine kids tried to make them and failed. They wanted to be anything but "another school shooting," they wanted to do the unfulfilled promise in Heathers. They had equipment, and time to practice, but were unable to get the explosives to work as planned. They wanted a body count in the hundreds. It seems explosives, while very possible, are harder to implement than it might appear. On the other hand, Iraq is showing the power of amateur efforts in that arena.
I'm mixed on gun control myself, but it still seems to me that this one person was able to take that many lives reliably because of guns. I don't think we can really ban them effectively though. If we make them illegal, they'll just come in across the border - though perhaps in smaller numbers.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 02:33 pm (UTC)In other words...no, he couldn't have done this in a country where you couldn't purchase a handgun. But on the other hand, most deranged shooters would not be able to pull off what he did. It points to this guy being really intelligent and methodical and applying his abilities to about the worst thing you could imagine.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 04:49 pm (UTC)Yes, he could have. Depending on preparation, ones can kill more than 30 people without firearms.
I say it's not the gun to be blamed for mass murders, although I don't like guns in general.
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Date: 2007-04-19 06:14 pm (UTC)The problem with that sentiment is that it's assuming he was determined enough to jump through all the hoops stricter gun control would require. He might have been, he might not have been, we'll never really know. But, this is just one case and stricter gun control isn't about preventing an individual case. In this context, it's about lowering what has unfortunately become a statistic: school shootings.
I definitely agree that it's not the gun that is to blame, but its availability makes this kind of tragedy far more accessible.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 06:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 10:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 05:33 pm (UTC)For the record, there are no countries where you can't purchase a handgun. It's harder in some than others, but that has more to do with demand than supply.
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Date: 2007-04-19 05:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 11:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 02:13 pm (UTC)Different part is he had somewhat Christian education. If not, he would have called himself some other historical hero.
I am watching Asian's response now. I will vent that out later.
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Date: 2007-04-19 02:21 pm (UTC)Did you? NO. If I had handed you a gun and said go for it, do you really think you would have done it? I don't. No matter what you think of yourself, I know you are better than that.
Not to mention that your scenario from college relates to specific people. Your gf, her fuckbuddy, the roommate. That was your target. Not a random classroom full of people who have done nothing to you. There is a big difference in motivation there.
The true point of the issue is 1) he was unbalanced but had chances to get help. The laws are such that we can't forcibly commit you or kick you out of school until you say "I am going to kill myself/someone else right now see here is the gun". the people did what they could do. 2) he who lived in centreville and went to VA tech railed against rich kids, but he was himself not too bad off was he? 3) he blames everyone but himself, the amount of externalization there and christ fixation is really quite astounding. he is utterly blameless in his own mind for everything.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 02:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 03:43 pm (UTC)I see on the news that funding for mental health services is now under scrutiny. Maybe some positive changes will actually occur. If so, it is too bad it too something so horrific for these changes to occur.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 02:48 pm (UTC)I do remember our dollhouse conversations. That movie was brilliant for it's portrayal and lack of any all good or all bad guys.
I find high school comparisons specious
Date: 2007-04-19 04:15 pm (UTC)Someone bullies you, move your schedule around, you won't see them and they won't have the chance.
Re: I find high school comparisons specious
Date: 2007-04-19 07:25 pm (UTC)This guy seems to have stopped trying.
You're right though. He was apparently carrying his weight from being picked on through middle school. I think that normally college is where everyone finds themselves - even us nerds (especially us nerds).
no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 03:46 pm (UTC)I think there are at least two things going on here:
1. Cho had some sort of pre-existing mental problem, be it neurochemical or psychological.
2. His perception of being bullied and powerless (whether true or not true is tough to tell), caused him to crack. This leads to the identification with Christ and the use of violence to try an gain a sense of power and revenge.
The gun control issue isn't the issue here. The issues are bullying and doing due diligence on people who are liable to crack or in the process of cracking.
Nobody in our culture wants to talk about bullying, they'd rather blame guns or video games or debbil musick or wearing black trenchcoats or anything else.
In my experience, the bullies in HS were either the popular/jocks (whose sports ability or social position allowed them to get away with crazy-ass shit under the tacit acceptance of authority) or the burnout/losers (who didn't care about school, social position, or anything like that; while authority tended to crack down on their bullying, it all rolled off like water from a duck). Add in the fact that even after authority steps in to stop bullying, the bullying often redoubles in quieter, more vicious, more deniable ways... well, hey, that's a crapload of pressure to put on a teenager who's brain is suffused with crazymaking chemicals and hasn't finished developing and has little experience in dealing with flooding emotions.
IMAO, this blindness means that a lot of the kneejerk responses post-Columbine -- cracking down on the "weirdos" and flagrant misuse of anti-bullying and "is X ready to snap?" initiatives against the outcast kids -- might be upping the pressure on those kids who are most likely to shatter under the circumstancse.
CU
no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 07:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 07:27 pm (UTC)I also find that they are picking on the freaks in reaction to these incidents rather than addressing bullying...BUT...there have been some strides into taking the bullying issue seriously. I suspect we're about to see more national dialogue. More will be focussed on the freaks of course, but some will address the bullies.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-19 08:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-20 12:08 am (UTC)I would say that the parents should have seen this kids isolation, alienation, and mental instability from high school. Seriously -- parents are always parents, even when you're an adult, and if the parents had no idea their kid was this instable they're at dire fault.
His background was Korean? Who the fuck knows. What I'd like to know is why the parents didn't provide more guidance, more mentoring, and perhaps assistance with mental health care. It's true what they say in the media - the universities are prohibited by law from providing certain information to parents. As far as the laws go, I only know about FERPA and that relates to information pertaining to a kid's academic grades. Certain info is not released to parents.
Still, parents have a moral obligation to check up on their kids. I've stopped watching the news about this senseless tragedy but it should raise some awareness. It's difficult to "parent" an adult child but one would hope that the parents of kids like this would at least have had some awareness.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-20 11:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-20 01:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-20 02:05 am (UTC)i had a hard time when i was younger. luckily, i had enough support and attention to keep me from acting out some of my more baroque retaliatory fantasies. and i got to grow up and get past giving a fuck wat stupid shit other people thought about me.
it seems like the common thread in these sort of crimes is that the people who should have been paying attention most were not... whether it be parents in Colorado or university administration in VA. the best way to ensure kids do crazy shit is to not pay attention to what it is they do.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-20 11:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-20 07:22 pm (UTC)at any rate, i still maintain that signs are usually there ahead of time, if people care to look for them... and that merely persecuting weird people is exactly the opposite of a valid (or helpful) response.