Accidental Troll

Yeah - one of them is my mom. She's very pro-tolerance, but is constantly frustrated with the loonies who call themselves various flavors of xtian. She's funny though, she has studied the bible and taught sunday school - she can tear an alleged fundie up with their own scripture.

My god I talked about my mom like twice in a week. I am so gay!

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lilkender.livejournal.com

I think studying the Bible is something most people who call themselves xtians do not do. If they read it for themselves, there are a number of religions which wouldn't exist. Remember the Catholic Church wanted to keep the knowledge in the hands of the priests and didn't want the Bible translated into English but kept in Latin. This allowed them more power.

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*sigh*

We did this last year, Jose. Do we really need to engage in this conversation again?

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I have no memory, and I looked up 2004 Feb tues/wed/thur and don't see anything. Maybe we do - I don't remember and I don't understand it. I remember someone clarifying that they didn't feel like it was showing off, that they just enjoyed their reminder of faith all day or something like that.

I am sorry if I seem intolerant, but I don't feel particularly bad for picking on the majority religion. I mean I think the mormon religion is wacky as hell, but it doesn't fill me with as much anger as they don't have enough power outside of Utah to really do damage. I do not know of their church waging a successful campaign in US politics.

And I'm reactionary when I see something all around me. I also rant about capris...may god have mercy on our souls.

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Well fair enough. You *do* rant about capris. :)

It just really hurts to see it. I'll admit I just ranted in my own journal about attitudes towards catholics. (And it's not just you -- several people have the same reactions you do about it, and rant in their journals.) That's what journals are for, I guess - ranting when we feel like it.

I'm just tired of it, is all.

Oh well. Another year will go by and we'll each have our respective rants about it again next year, eh?

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Honestly I don't know how it can hurt. I wouldn't understand if a republican was hurt when I made fun of them - they are in charge of everything, they won. I don't mind when people make fun of males or whites, because they do not suffer discrimination as a general rule. It's a lot different to use the term honkeys than to use the word nigger.

It's hard not to rally against the group that is - by my view - constantly attacking me, my biology, my beliefs, and my lifestyle choice. I know there are lovely people in the group who don't believe in what the church preaches, but then if they don't follow that belief system I don't understand being hurt when I mock the belief system.

I really did look up last year and don't see it.

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Um, maybe check Nadra's journal? I think the bulk of it is in there.

There's a difference between the politics of a thing and the faith of a thing. It's something that many, many people have trouble separating out.

And it hurts because my friends all know I'm Catholic yet they feel perfectly compelled to rail against Catholics, as if they either don't know or don't care that a friend of theirs can be hurt by their rhetoric.

And really, Jose, you're known for your ranting. Sometimes I wonder if you really mean it or are just choosing inflammatory language just to rile folks up.

Then again, it's your journal, so whatever.

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Sigh...it's my journal but I really don't want to hurt my friends. I often fire from the hip when I write, and as a news junkie I've feel like I've been bombarded lately: the pope pope pope is in the hospital, we just had pro-lifers in DC, MD is passing anti-gay laws like VA, today is ash-wed and then it's all on the metro and now in the hallways at work. I feel surrounded.

I'm not trying to rile people up - rather I like my minority religion and no-religion friends to feel like they aren't alone in feeling oppressed, and I want to feel less alone as well. I do feel the way I express myself, though what that means may be confusing. I hate america for all the things it does, but I'm still a part of it. I'd walk away from it if I could easily take my stuff and friends with me. I don't expect my anti-us rants to hurt either. I am not hurt by other people's anti-us rants. That doesn't mean I hate all americans or all american values, but the feeling still exists. Does that make it less offensive?

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So you're basically lashing out because you feel threatened?

I guess I understand that, and by all means, continue to fight the good fight against the pro-lifers, the anti-gays, and the republicans, but just try to understand that people walking around with ashes on their head has nothing to do with whether or not those same people picketed a clinic last week.

People wear ashes for a very meaningful spiritual reason, not a political one. By wearing those ashes, they are not rubbing their faith in your face.

Actually, as Chad pointed out to me earlier, they're rubbing their faith in *their own* face. :)

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Actually, honestly, yes - I'm lashing out because I feel threatened. That's very often the reason for my rants.

You're not worried about hurting your republican friends by lashing out at them? What about pro-lifers?

I'm really sorry for the backwash on people who honestly believe in that ash thing, or for women for really feel that the muslim wraps are a profession of faith. I have encountered many people who are clearly not just rubbing their religion in my face, but engaging in all sorts of cliquish behavior.

I've left a job and an office job because someone in charge engaged in systematic selection of people of their own faith. I was lucky here for when a group of jehovahs formed a clique, they were outweighed by the diversity and they chose to leave. Had they been in control, I have no doubt that I would have been under attack here as I have been in other places.

It's scary! I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm scared!

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I've left a job and an office job because someone in charge engaged in systematic selection of people of their own faith.

Actually, that doesn't seem to be a problem with any faith in question, but the people involved in it.

What if they had done the same thing, but the systematic selection was on the basis of vegetarianism? Or political leaning? Or -- and how about this -- sexual orientation?

Would you have left the job if the selection was bias towards gay people? Only gay folks get promoted?

CU

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Point, but that is more often what is termed inappropriate as 'reverse discrimination.' It's less scary and/or offensive when it's done by minorities.

I would have to leave, not being a full-time gay. If I was attacked for being gay or not being gay or not being gay enough, I would leave - the situation would only be different in that I'd see the personal attacks in the workplace as not reflecting a general societal trend.

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Point, but that is more often what is termed inappropriate as 'reverse discrimination.' It's less scary and/or offensive when it's done by minorities.

So it seems. For my part, I find reverse discrimination just as scary.

Majority-directed discrim has the numbers and the culture. Minority-directed discrim has the intenstity, a proximate cause, and a moral patina.

CU

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...but bloody little actual negative impact on the lives of those who are its targets.

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In the example I was postulating, the societal minority members had direct power and effect over the societal majority members. In that case, there would be actual negative impact.

In a wider sense, outside of that specific example, the negative impacts I see of reverse discrimination are in terms of philosophy, communication, entitlement, and trust. While these are indirect and non-physical effects, they can still be negative in people's lives in both the majority and minority. That is where I am concerned.

But, as you say, reverse discrimination has little direct and physical negative impact on the majority.

CU

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I'm thinking given the emotional committment of um...us, some of us, this might be better addressed in RL conversations - over cocktails maybe? I like it the Beth, but I'm just not understanding where she is coming from on this one. I see the logic, but the emotions just don't make sense to me (gee I guess that's why they're called emotions) :)

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Sounds like a plan. I think we're go re: [SOMETHING SOMETHING], but don't quote me on that. :)

CU

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I'd be willing to talk about it IRL, but like I said, I'm not sure we'll ever "get" where the other is coming from.

Religion is a very personal, and to me, emotional issue. I don't approach my spirituality with anything less than my whole heart. And I don't know if I can ever successfully relate to someone who isn't religous and is anti-"everything Catholicism stands for" what the spiritual issue is. How the two - faith and politics - are wholly separate. Yes, for some Catholics, they aren't, but for me, and many Catholics, they are.

I guess I also have a bit of an attitude about it in that how dare someone say that since I have a particular *spiritual* belief, I must also agree with everything they find offensive about Catholic politics?

I mean, how dare anyone lump me in, ascribe certain beliefs to me, and then judge me for it? You don't go to Church, you don't have conversations with other Catholics (at least, you don't say you've actually found out what Catholics think from individual Catholics), you don't attend town hall-style meetings with your priest and tell him this anti-gay thing is just not on. You're not the one with a progressive priest who actually does try to make a difference and who himself disagrees with many of the more stentorian "policies" coming from above.

I am not the only one who feels this way. I know many Catholics who are like me. And I was frankly offended that you'd take a HOLY DAY and turn it into your excuse for a political rant.

I think you said somewhere else that you sometimes don't get emotional things? (Forgive me if I' mmisquoting you) - I guess I don't get how you don't see where the emotional issue is. Maybe the above will help that situation; maybe it'll hurt it.

So the question then is, will we ever get it? *shrug* I dunno. Maybe we do this dance again next year. Maybe next year I learn to ignore it.

Oh, and by the way, Jose, I'm not mad at you. Electronic communications don't always show the whole picture, so yes, talking is probably better. I was just tired of it. I'm frustrated and tired and to me it's just as close-minded as you accuse others of being. I'm tired of the Catholic bashing. If you have problems with the specific policies of Cardinal this or Pope that, then by all means try to direct your arguments to that. But leave the poor people with ashes on their foreheads alone. You have no idea what they think.

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Nope, you're not misquoting me. And no, we probably won't get it. You won't understand why I consider people related to all the aspects of the groups they profess, you won't understand why I don't buy the theological / political split (much), and I won't understand why making fun of a religion or its practice frustrates you. While what I say may be close-minded, I'm open minded enough to allow people to do stuff that I think is personally destructive, but unlike them I'm not trying to pass laws against them. I bash xtians of all flavors, religion of all flavors, whites, straights...and don't understand why people mind. I don't mind similar issues, in fact I often gauge friendships by how much we can mock one another and aspects of their life.

I hope we both get it at some point.

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I hope we both get it at some point.

Me too. *smile*

I guess we just keep talking about it.

(Preferably not only on Ash Wednesday.)

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eac.livejournal.com

Now I'll get yelled at by my more tolerant friends and certainly the catholic ones, but I just see no justification for this religion. How many horrid campaigns can this religion engage in before you turn away from it entirely?

Don't believe in abortion? Don't have an abortion.
Don't see any justification in gay marriage? Don't try to justify it.
Don't want to be Catholic? Don't be Catholic.

Do you feel personally responsible for our American campaign in Iraq?

If not, consider that individual Catholics may not feel responsible for some of the actions of the church.

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It's a good point, but I actually make fun of americans and people who show off their flag etc as well. I actively fight the culture, and don't run around professing to be a part of it or proud of it. I am sympathetic to anti-american hate.

If nothing else, I'm consistent.

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eac.livejournal.com

You are consistent, Jose, but if you'll forgive me, I think your argument here is bunk (if you try to base it in logic).

If you can applaud yourself for "fighting the culture" while still living here and taking all the advantages of citizenship, why should Catholics leave their church? Why can't they also fight their culture from within?

In any case, I still like and respect you, etc. I just wish that you would reconsider some of these rants. And I'm sure I must have said something about this last time you ranted.

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Good argument - but I still have a hard time reaching an understanding of why a rant against a religion hurts the members of that religion. Yes, I take advantage of all sorts of US benefits - but I am not offended by mocking the US. I don't understand and I do constantly forget that people get all riled up over group based attacks on majority groups.

I'm also a slow learner, especially on emotional issues.

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eac.livejournal.com

*shakes head*

*grin*

Forget about hurting "members of that religion" a minute. This about your particular friends who you might hurt. Why do that? I mean, just why?

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Forget about hurting "members of that religion" a minute. This about your particular friends who you might hurt.

Bingo.

(Not that this rant bothers me personally, as I'm an amazingly heretical lapsed Catholic. It bugs me a little on other grounds, in ascribing people motives that they probably don't have, and by blanket comdemnation of all of a group, but that'd bug me no matter what the group is.)

CU

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Upon refelection,

(Not that this rant bothers me personally, as I'm an amazingly heretical lapsed Catholic. It bugs me a little on other grounds, in ascribing people motives that they probably don't have, and by blanket comdemnation of all of a group, but that'd bug me no matter what the group is.)

Actually, there are a couple groups that blanket condemnation doesn't bug me. The KKK and the Nazis for two.

Hmmmm.

Need to ponder this. Is this the angle that Jose is coming from? If so, I'm not sure the analogy between the KKK/Nazis and the Church holds up completely.

While both say things one doesn't agree with, I don't think the Church is actively, physically involved in attacks on people, nor does it encourage physical actions against others.

Anyway.

CU

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Yeah, I'm wondering why my rant against behavior gets her to react while your self-professed heressey does not. Weird.

The KKK and Nazis don't bug me much because they lack power, hell their names are used as insults. The church doesn't encourage physical attacks against people, but it is clearly engaged in several campaigns against many behaviors I want the freedom to engage in, and several types of living arrangements that benefit friends of mine. Er, the mean comment would be to question if transferring and covering up molestation in the US qualifies as involvement, but that is clearly not supported by the main church.

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Yeah, I'm wondering why my rant against behavior gets her to react while your self-professed heressey does not. Weird.

I suspect that part of it is because you're lashing out against Catholicism itself (which comprises not just the beliefs and behaviors you mention, but plenty of other stuff, including any people who think of themselves as Catholic) rather than focusing individually on a bunch of hypocrites within the Church or faith, the policies of the Church, or the hierarchy.

You seem to be saying, "Anyone/thing connected to Catholicism is bad, because some Catholics have done or believe bad things and I disagree with what I see as hateful or stupid policies of the Church."

Then there's this gem: "Being catholic and not hating gays and sex. . ."

Technically, one should love the sinner and hate the sin. The Church has simply defined homosexuality and premarital sex as sins. Since I don't think the Pope is infalliable, except for setting Church policy (note, this isn't the same as interpreting God's will, and I personally believe a bunch of Church doctrine is just bloody stupid), I feel the Church is way off-base in declaring those as sins.

By using a shotgun approach, you're hitting everyone in the cone, not just the people or issues who deserve it.

On the other hand, all I'm saying is, "My beliefs are no consonant with the Catholic Church." A personal statement of belief which only affects me is often more well-received than a personal statement that contains an attack.

Oh, and one last thing: Maybe it's me, but I've never heard of 3x a year catholics. I've heard of 2x (what my grandma calls "Jingle Bells and Easter Bunnies"), but very few people I know went to Ash Wednesday services to show off. To get out of school/work, sure. To show off, no. In my hometown, nobody cared, and -- frankly -- most of us Catholics were kind of embarassed about it.

It wasn't "Hey, bitches, I'm Catholic, yo!" it was, "Crap, everyone can see I'm Catholic" and then having to put up with the splitter -- er, sorry, Protestant -- jokes.

So I was oppressed for my faith as a kid. That makes me a victim. Which absolves me of anything and everything, related or not. Forever and ever. Right?

CU

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Technically, one should love the sinner and hate the sin. The Church has simply defined homosexuality and premarital sex as sins.

Were that the case, the Church would not be opposing programs which encourage condom-use to prevent the spread of HIV among MARRIED people in Africa. Indeed, it actively DISCOURAGES condom use, going so far as to spread rumors of its PROMOTING HIV transmission.

Whatever their doctrine may be on paper, the Church's actions betray a belief that sex is wrong, and that pregnancy and AIDS are appropriate punishments (punishments bourne disproportionately by women in societies where they are already marginalized).

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If you can applaud yourself for "fighting the culture" while still living here and taking all the advantages of citizenship, why should Catholics leave their church? Why can't they also fight their culture from within?

Because you can't run for Pope.

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If not, consider that individual Catholics may not feel responsible for some of the actions of the church.

Yes.

Thank you.

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ex-dasboot.livejournal.com

If you, as an individual, do not take responsibility for actions of The Church, then why do you take offense to accusations aimed at The Church and not you, individually?

After all, if you're going to pick and choose which aspects of Catholocism you accept, then why do you feel threatened when attacks are made against the specific aspects you don’t really care for? This is, of course, assuming that you’re not personally involved in any campaigns to suppress homosexuality, and haven’t, yourself, fondled 10 year olds.

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Do you feel personally responsible for our American campaign in Iraq?

No, but members of the Republican Party should, and if they chose to continue to support the party at this point, they have given their tacit endorsement to the wrongs it has commited.

And even that analogy only goes so far, since the Republican Party, and the US in general, are democratic institutions, capable of change from the ground up. The Catholic Church is an authoritarian institution.

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lilkender.livejournal.com

If your Catholic friends don't want to start a possibly offensive discussion, they should ignore this post.

I can't see why people who say they disapprove of things the Catholic Church has done (and continues to do) would stay with it. They could take their faith and built a new church. It's quite easy to do in the U.S. With their attendance, their census poll and their donations, they're saying they do support what the Church does and the things it has done in the past and never apologized for. For example, I refuse to hang out with gay-bashers and racists; I don't patronize companies that donate to anti-abortion organizations. I wouldn't want to be associated with such an organization as the Catholic Church. By arguing that they're offended, they're defending it and all it stands for.

I know there are individuals who take their free will into their own hands, but there are too many who let their minds and actions be controlled by the Church. I can't even have an intelligent discussion with these people when the only argument they can offer is, "Well, my priest said so" - unconditional belief gets in the way. They're brain-washed.

Thanks for the reminder, Jose - every year I nearly wipe the dirt from someone's forehead before I remember it must be Ash Wednesday.

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wabmart.livejournal.com

Distinguish the views and the implementation and we'll talk. I'm lapsed largely because of the politics of "the church", but I'm not directly opposed to the majority of their beliefs.

The cover-ups are politics, the no-gay-marriage-at-all is politics. As for "hating gays and sex", you're woefully out-of-date with the "views", as you put it. I know I'm probably feeding a troll here, but it makes me wonder what bug crawled up your ass that you can be so myopic on this issue.

As for Ash Wednesday, there are quite a few people who pointedly go to an evening service so they don't have to rub it in everyone's face that they got their face rubbed. Oops, shouldn't tell you that since it'll shatter your world in which the Catholic church is a monolithic entity of mindless drones.

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Who the hell cares? I don't care about the views - I care about the implementation. I care about the organized group that is engaged in focussed attacks on aspects of culture and health that concern me. If they say they are pro-satan and they do good things and are a positive force in the community then good for them.

Your reaction is at least as bad as mine in terms of reactionary oomph.

(deleted comment)

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lilkender.livejournal.com

Well said.
One other point to add - the Catholic Church's tenets and policies were set up in a different age, and shouldn't necessarily be applied to the modern world.

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I have a lot of trouble with the idea that religious beliefs are somehow "off-limits" for discussion or criticism. If somebody tells me that they talk to Saucer Men from Pluto, I'm going to point and laugh, right? But somehow I'm "intolerant" if I apply the same standards for critical thinking to those who talk to Jesus.

While that is a more general sentiment, it applies specifically to the subject at hand because the "off-limits" nature of religious belief also prevents people from taking a critical look at their OWN affiliations. I won't use the KKK example out of respect for Godwin's Law, but if somebody told me they were a member of the John Birch Society, but they don't agree with their politics, I'd think they were nuts.

I apply the same standard toward choosing to affiliate oneself with the Catholic Church (or Fundamentalist Protestantism, or extremist Islam, for that matter) that I do towards otherwise-Liberal folks giving money to the NRA just because they like guns. Sure, they may not agree with all the NRA's politics, but they know damn well who the NRA is giving that money to.

Religion is a choice. If one does not AGREE with what a religion teaches or promotes, then why affiliate oneself with that religion? The only reason I can think of is that one thinks those disagreeable teachings are insignificant compared to one's emotional attachment to a specific set of rituals. In the case of the Catholic Church, that means that one considers gay rights, fighting AIDS, and a woman's right to choose to be less significant than eating a stale cracker and getting schmutz on your forehead. In which case, having your feelings hurt might be appropriate.

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I agree with your logic - but I'm still back at not understanding how a member of a majority religion is hurt by me bashing it. I still don't see it as different than white men complaining about 'reverse discrimination' and 'male bashing.' As long as the groups you belong to (or in this case profess to belong to) are the majority, I don't understand being emotionally hurt by the reactionary statements. I don't think I'd get the same reaction if I blasted heterosexuals - but it seems like the same thing to me. I also Bush Bash, and there are Bush fans on my LJ. They comment here and there, but don't seem to be offended or emotionally hurt by my comments.

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