(no subject)

[vicarz]

My response to an old friend - co-worker/subordinate asking about how to avoid bad recommendations from a shit-pit of employment

> Good day. I hope you are doing well . . .

I don't need your polite banter! My god what a false sounding introduction – sounds like the prelude to a suck-up! If I didn't know you I'd already be on guard!

Voted for Dean, more because I didn't want the media washing the guy out for yelling (admittedly like an idiot). Why are all the real vets democratic candidates this time around? I mean it was funny comparing and contrasting rich boys Clinton/Bush's dodging the draft, but now the patriotic war-loving rednecks are officially supporting draft dodging rich boys over the ex-military leaders. Neat.

> My concern > is allowing a prospective employer to contact X> or Y for a
> reference. X dislikes me intensely for largely> the same reasons she > disliked you, and we both know how dishonest and> petty she is. X would > love for me to be gone, but through an involuntary> termination, not by > finding a better job.

I agree. On the other hand, while I didn't use her as a 'reference,' I did leave people free to contact her. I wasn't sure how to get out of that trap, except that my first possible position was made through clawing through connections, and the next one called with an offer right away – no interview at all. I suspect if they didn't interview, they didn't contact my supervisor.

Honestly, I don't know the way out of that trap. I think I'd refer to Y as my sup rather than X, a fair 'gaming technique.' Of course you don't trust either, and shouldn't, but you're better off with him. You could refer to me as well if you like, though I am frightfully honest. I couldn't refer to myself as your direct supervisor, but I could describe the supervisory role over different mods. Me being a sort-of supervisor, and having left, makes any info I offer look kinda flakey. Plus if asked about negatives, I'd probably say … well I'd find a professional way to say um…awkward, socially awkward? Something like that. Quirky. On the positive side I'd note very intelligent and with a tremendous personal sense of ethics, reliable, a team player, and that sort of thing.

Glad you are trying over here - now here it might make sense for you to use me as a reference since I'm a known entity in this agency (at least FSIS / LERD). See below about my honesty though!

> As for Y . . .

Y is Y. It cracks me up that I'm still turning down 14s while I go school – they're all over the place here, at least for me, and still he slugs away in that idiocy. He is too bright to think that either a) a 14 there is valuable compared to the grand scheme of career possibilities or b) X will help get him ahead. Maybe they're like a couple of lone cheerios in a bowl of milk…

Still, that said, your story about the VEVRAA complainant raises more concerns about you than him. While I admire how you have always been a highly principled man with very high ethical standards, there is no job where you will not be asked to do things that you don't want to do. Losing it to the point you call your boss a liar to their face – not a good sign. I understand the frustration, and honestly I would up yelling out loud shortly before leaving myself, but even then it wasn't to call my boss names (deserved or no). I would really look inside yourself and try to find the strength to take the horrid situation without showing insubordination. Ask – why do I need to express this? How could it possibly help? What benefit is there to me saying this? Perhaps save the speech and outbursts for when you have officially escaped and you see one of them in a mall. Even then, you might find escaping the situation just makes their self-imposed misery amusing and pitiful, rather than something that should be retaliated against.

The discriminated employee was excellent but> had annoyed his company > superiors because he insisted that he do his job> properly and his government > supervisor wanted corners...

That sounds to me like a bonna-fide non-discriminatory reason. Illegal perhaps, but hardly unusual. Almost all employers want the same thing – employees that do what they are told. The situation you describe doesn't sound like discrimination of the disabled, it sounds like poor treatment of someone who happens to be disabled, along with his/her peers.

> 3.) It would have been my first real discrimination> finding and X > doesn't want me to get credit for something like> that; and,> 4.) I greived my performance evaluation.

Well yeah, that does fit the pattern as I recall. X's appearance is paramount in her mind, irony of reality aside, and there is no sacrifice too great for others to pay in her petty agenda.

> If Y> had leveled with me . I also told Z who came down > for the NORI meeting with the complaint that I knew> she was going to lie to > the complaint -- she barred me from attending the> meeting.

He would have been violating every possible rule of conduct for a supervisor. Z did the right thing from an organizational standpoint. I think it's actually harder to…tell the truth? Hmm, I think I violated that rule myself. Ultimately the role he is supposed to play is to talk the party-line, regardless of his feelings. Think of the Bush-appointed EPA administrator who stepped down - she was by the book. It is behind closed doors that he is supposed to express his feelings, and with you now acting like a loose cannon...I'd be party line too, no offense. He's also alone now – there is no one he can safely talk to in that office.

Law school - think about it. If you really want to be an advocate, be an advocate, but don't think you can act like an advocate when it's not what you're supposed to do.

> I think Y was racked with guilt

If that sort of thing were in his nature he would have reacted by now. I think you may over-estimate him. His core may not be bad, but it seems that it's been demonstrated that it's not good enough to overcome that situation, or to inspire him to show support for principles.

> But I really don't want him for a> recommendation. I don't want to owe > anything to Y and how can I ask him to give me> a recommendation when I > called him a liar to his face, even though I later> apologized to him > sincerely?

You don't owe a supervisor a thing for a recommendation. A recommendation for an employee is just part of the regular job duties, and he gets his same old GS-13 pay for doing that just as for fetching X's coffee or doing payroll. There is no obligation on your part, no debt, based on that type of action. As for calling him a liar – well that's a mistake you made, and you're stuck with the consequences. I suspect he has enough grace not to mention that sort of thing, though he does have the obligation to mention, if asked for negative or if giving an honest all over impression, that you may be a bit over emotional, expressive, or something that hints at the underlying issue. My 2¢

> How do I interview for a new job and ask a> prospective employer to > not contact my supervisors? I doubt if you> used X for a > reference when you landed the USDA job -- so how did> you handle this > dilemma?

I put her down on the form as my supervisor - specific references are outdated and I didn't use any such thing on my resume. As for asking people not to contact your bosses - you don't – you have to weather the possible blow. You have to be honest, while focusing on the positive at all points. Talk about growth and change you seek for yourself, and perhaps mention these things to your boss. If you list either as a reference, don't keep your search a secret. You also don't trash them, deserved or not. I would not put them down as references, just as supervisors if no references are called for. If called for, hope for the fair side of Y. If nothing else, remember when my ass finally got out of there I was applying to at least 2 jobs a week. Most jobs are pre-selected, and you need to make the application pool look like post-war Dresden with your resume to have a shot of making it.

The job I got here was a fluke - why did they hire me at all when I had no direct experience? I see why they were short-staffed (cleaned house and had an awful reputation) but I still don't know why I looked like such a good risk. They weren't wrong - I'm doing well here (my first good performance appraisal - imagine that) but the initial guess remains a mystery to me.

I think while in general you're not supposed to give negative information about your bosses or the situation you're leaving, being an EEO fellow in a Bush controlled world is a fair reason to bolt. If you need to discuss negative things about the current job, I'd focus on 'writing on the wall' issues over the people in 'why did you leave your last job' type questions.

You may well lose jobs to them, especially to X - at least you CAN lean on Y. I will never know what impact that woman had on my ability to escape, though I know what they did when I was getting out to Main Labor. Perhaps she was fair, perhaps not, but no one can keep you from all the opportunities you CREATE for yourself.

> Sorry if it looks like I rambled:

Ditto. Hope what I give helps.

José

I think some of what I offerred him as advice in dealing with a bad situation may be good advice for non-work social situations too.

Comments

[wabmart.livejournal.com]

Y is Y

Don't tell me you're going objectivist.

[chadu.livejournal.com]

Crap, someone got to the joke before I could.

CU

[vicar.livejournal.com]

This is a tough group! I didn't even see that, having written the mail with names, then edited them out for this. In my mind I still see a face...Y a face?

[coronalrain.livejournal.com]

that all seems like very sounds advice and i think applicable to about everyone i know. rough work and social situations just suck all around